David SummerhaysDavid Summerhays: Hi, everyone. This is the Forging Purpose Podcast. I’m David Summerhays. And today we have part two of the interview with Sonora. In part one, we learned that, well, she doesn’t want to be an astronaut. And we also learned that she’s really good at staying in the present moment, you know, being process driven, not driven by results. She’s not competitive, all the things that I am not. So I really learned a lot from talking to her. In this second part, we’re going to go over even more about what is a good death? What does that mean to die? Well, how does one go about doing it? And what kind of questions can we ask to learn about people’s meaning structure? So without any further ado, let’s get started.
I’m especially interested in like sort of non confessional folks, folks that would be in your work environment that are, you know, not just so Sonora, I’m a Catholic. And so, you know, I know exactly what I need, which is the local priest or local, you know, people don’t know what they need in that way.
Chaplain Sonora: Okay. I think that’s the first thing that was really interesting to me coming from a not Christian background. And being among, especially in the south, I went to Vanderbilt, which is in Nashville, Tennessee, where there is kind of a more Christian default than I’m originally from the West Coast, south of Seattle, the Pacific Northwest, which is not a particularly religious place. Obviously moved to Montreal, which has, of course, Catholic history, but also not a particularly religious place. In the kind of socially, you know, when you just meet people in the south, the kind of assumption is they go to church, which is just a little bit of a wild assumption for me. So kind of first learning that and then also learning that like what religious affiliation people put on their chart, you know, like when you enter a hospital or healthcare system, you can put a religious affiliation doesn’t really mean much. So like Catholic doesn’t, I don’t go into a room assuming I know what Catholics want. I mean, I can call the priest, there are some like things like that. So you have a couple clues, but that’s about like a sentence or two, like that doesn’t get you very far into an interaction. Yeah, so I think realizing that even people who have a clear label, that doesn’t give you much about how they’re actually living their faith or living kind of how what their interpretive lens is. And then extending that interpretive lens beyond people who are either just in my head, it’s just that they don’t have anything in their chart, which is kind of more the default. And then when you talk to people, sometimes they’ll say, I’m atheist, agnostic, spiritual, formerly, a lot of formerly, more conservative or Christian folks who are some sort of deconstruction process or just kind of floated away from the church, you know, and then kind of, so I end up, I think, starting at a similar place, I might have like one slight, not even a leg up, like a toe up based on what you’ve put in your chart from your religious tradition, but then you kind of have to go from there, which I’m guessing is what you’re primarily interested in. And how do you, and I mean, I was trying to think about this, like what I don’t know what my strategies are. It really is an active listening process where first getting into starting at the details of like, why are you in the hospital? What is the situation? But then from there, just being in conversation with people and listening, and particularly picking up on the specific words that they’re using to kind of reframe and start to figure out, okay, what is actually important to this person? What is truly upsetting them about the situation? What is there, if it’s like a family relationship, what is the relationship? Just trying to kind of establish in my own head, not explicitly, the lay of the land of what is happening in this room with, and this particular person or this whole group. And personally, I kind of prefer one-on-one interactions, but it’s doesn’t, you don’t really get to pick, it’s just kind of whoever’s there. So I think I’m better at establishing a lay of the land where it’s just like one person who I can really focus in on and really attentively listen to what they’re saying. And then kind of also try to do that expansively with a little bit more kind of space for moving parts when there’s more people. But kind of in that active listening process, which I kind of learned from peer support, I really think of it as like ideally 80-20, that the person in front of me is talking 80% of the time, and at max I’m talking 20% of the time. And primarily confirming, rephrasing, paraphrasing, double checking what they’ve already said, and then asking as pretty, in not a lot of words, trying to be pretty economical about my follow-up questions. So I’m not asking a list of questions, I’ll just have one kind of, and usually kind of in that, really trying to figure out and really listen to what they’re saying is kind of the first big step, and then kind of making that mental map for myself of what actually, what matters to this person. And that could just, it just varies a lot in terms of the practical stuff, you know, pets, family, community, yeah, who is coming to the hospital, who is doing this, what friends are we calling, are we talking to anyone, have you eaten today, are we doing, you know, the kind of, the practical stuff I think is the first line, and then what you end up, the kind of second element is that kind of, we generally say theological, but kind of that meaning framework, how are you making meaning out of the situation, how are you interpreting the events that are happening, because things are happening, but people interpret them various different ways, and so it really is trying to figure out that interpretive frame of the person in front of me, so that I can best, well first I need to understand them before I can, you know, kind of like figure out how to best support them, and I mean that obviously, and kind of build rapport and a little bit of relationship, because it’s hard to just go straight into support, you know, like as nice, as good as your intentions are, if you don’t know me, then it totally makes sense to me, you don’t want anything to do with me, like that, it’s a pretty intense situation, usually, or not always, but it can be, and so like, I also like understand and try to give a lot of space for like, this random girl has showed up, maybe you don’t want to talk to me, and spill out the secrets of your soul, you know, but on the flip side, some people need somebody, they have all these things on their plate, and they just need to get it off for somebody, and then I could be there for that, so it really depends on what the person in front of me is, both the actual situation, and then how they think about their life, and this is also a little bit part of what we call like life review, and so usually, not even, it’s not even necessarily related to somebody who’s going to die, but like just what stories are they going back to, you know, we kind of create how we tell stories about our life, and kind of the stereotypical or the classic for Christian folks is like, especially in an evangelical context, is like when they have like a moment where they met Christ, or were born again, or something like that, I usually would hear those, but then outside of that, you can also just think of pivotal moments, or the things that people, the stories, the moments that define them, and then how they tell those stories, and what within that story they focus on, yes, and then also, I think sometimes it can be helpful to kind of be aware, or to focus on something else within a story, it’s just kind of abstract, which I have a hard time with, but like, the thing that that’s kind of important to me is like, abstract, which I have a hard time with, but like, the thing that they’re focusing on, recognizing also in myself, that’s not the thing that intrigued me, you know what I mean, like something about also recognizing what pieces that I would pick up on, that they’re picking up on, and kind of the contrast also helps figure out, okay, that’s interesting to me, but that’s not really what they’re focusing on, they’re really focusing not on how they were feeling, but how their daughter was feeling, and it’s like, okay, everything with this person is going back to their daughter, it’s always external, outside of themselves, we’re going back to this other person, that says something about how this person thinks about their life, you know, those sorts of details to me are the key of like, kind of collecting them and shaping them into my own mental map, while trying to build relationship and rapport.
David Summerhays: Just, let’s see, I mean, just make sure I’m keeping a couple of things straight. So first of all, let’s say you come in there, and yeah, like, people could be living all kinds of different things, like, they could be saying, like, like, yeah, I’m gonna die, or, you know, whatever it is, I’m gonna, I’ll be fine, or, you know, they’re at peace with one piece. But then they’re like, just super concerned about their pet. And to you, it’s a little counterintuitive. It’s like, well, aren’t you concerned about yourself? And you keep coming back to this pet. And then you realize, okay, the pet is the thing that’s just kind of, that’s really bothering them. That’s very front of mind right now. And then you mentioned doing a life review. And like you said, it doesn’t have to be someone that’s dying. It’s like, it’s just, let’s say you’re really sick, or you can’t use your thumbs the same way anymore. You have to review your life. But you’re saying that’s like a big need that comes up?
Chaplain Sonora: I don’t know if it’s a need, but it definitely comes up. Because I’m thinking about, practically, as a chaplain in a hospital system, you have to write notes. So like all the other healthcare providers, when you see a patient afterwards, you have to write in their chart. And so there are certain drop down menus or things that you like tasks, they can be like, this is what we did. So the obvious kind of classic ones, it’s like, there’s a checkbox for like, we prayed, you know, but another kind of, I don’t know exactly in different systems, but you could say, oh, we did a light, we talked about life review, which is kind of an internal term. But I mean, even we did it a little bit at the beginning, when I’m telling you about like, when I was a kid, that’s reviewing my life. Like, that is just the term for that kind of the narratives that we tell stories, we talk about when we talk about ourselves, and then we look back on our lives. You know, we’ve, I’m not talking about what I eat for breakfast all the time. I have, you know, kind of stories and things that influence how I think about myself. So usually it is kind of through that self conception, but it’s just the kind of general, internal chart term for what do we do? Well, we, because you need to have, and this also relates to a kind of a little bit of a incongruence between the hospital systems that we have, and like the actual work, because like, it isn’t very orient, action oriented, or goal oriented work chaplaincy, as opposed to like, as a doctor or a nurse, you want your patient to get better, and they do or they don’t, you know, like, it’s a little bit more clearly suited for the kind of charting system, whereas a chaplain, it’s a like, you could have had a very meaningful, robust visit and still find yourself in the chart, like being like, I don’t really know. But there is also then you write it out in note. So that’s another aspect of the kind of profession. Yeah, so there is a little bit of that incongruence, which also relates to, which is something I like about it, in that I’m not, I don’t have action points. I don’t have goals. I am literally just here to support you, person, patient in front of me, other human, you know, like, I think, to me, that’s very freeing that like, even if a person or if I am kind of, if they’re not, you know, handling things in the ideal way or whatever, like, I’m not there to pass judgment. I’m just there to figure out what is going on and best support you in this moment. That’s not to say that, I mean, people make all sorts of decisions, you know, and this is, then you could be like, oh, well, none of their family members are showing up. Clearly, this is the person who has burned some bridges. That doesn’t, I don’t, I’m just here as your hospital chaplain. I’m not here as your friend outside of this. So to me, I don’t care about you burning a bridge with me. I’m just trying to be here for you. You know what I mean? Like, it kind of frees up your goals and what you’re trying to accomplish because you don’t really have things to accomplish, which to me, then, makes it so much better because I’m not thinking about what I need to be doing. I’m just thinking about, okay, who is this person? Even if they are, you know, and I don’t really, I don’t like calling people good people or bad people. We’re all just people. We make decisions. And some of them are maybe, maybe objectively good or bad, but like, you know, murder is probably bad. You know, like, that kind of stuff. But I just, I’m not a very, it doesn’t bug me if the person in front of me is a quote-unquote bad person. That kind of doesn’t matter because they’re still dealing with this thing. And my job is to provide support. And they’ve expressed that they want support. And so here I am. And we’ll do it. And we’ll figure it out. And then if it goes really terribly wrong, you know, there is then those boundaries. Like, okay, well, then if you start, like, sexually harassing me or something, then I’ll remove myself. And that’s when it’s very helpful to have those strong professional boundaries of being able to extract yourself and be like, nope, as a hospital employee, I am out, you know. But, yeah, no, that’s kind of what I really like about it is that kind of, there isn’t a goal. And this is also what I was thinking about. I briefly thought about being a therapist, but I was like, I don’t really want to work total. I like the kind of peer support, non-goal, spirit-led kind of element. I do really like that. So that’s part of what the work appeals to me. Huh. And you mentioned that it’s difficult for you to share some stories because there’s a lot of confidentiality. But do you have an example of something that went really well or really poorly in terms of this, like, diagnosing, okay, this is what this person needs. This is their spiritual or meaning framework. This is what they need right now to make sense of things. But I don’t know. Success for me, I mean, is kind of moments of emotional openness when I could tell that we’ve gotten to a place however quickly it happened. And it can be something as simple as, like, watching a movie together. Like, I watched a lot of Chopped with this one patient. And it’s not about Chopped. It’s about the just being together and being able to, like, hold her hand, you know? And that didn’t even, we didn’t even talk that much. I didn’t even really figure out what her meaning structure is. But it also is a little bit of that less intellectual and more just in the moment emotional spiritual awareness of, like, okay, we are, I am doing it. We are, I’m being a friend right now. And that is clear to me by witnessing this other person be a friend with me. You know, that kind of relationship built however we got there. And it might not be very words based at all. So, yeah, it really depends. So it could be praying with somebody. But I kind of have prayer anxiety, so I prefer not to. But I just always want to say the right things. And then I feel like there’s more pressure with a prayer. And then I’m like, and then in my head, I’m like, do you want, are you used to a certain way of praying and I’m not doing it? But yeah, no, it really doesn’t. I think I kind of keep an expansive, try to keep an expansive view of success as well. But yeah, so it just, it just depends. And sometimes it’s not always like nice and satisfying, you know, like you could also see. Also, this is not like a one time thing. I think that’s also part of it is that you’re seeing, you know, multiple times and building that rapport. And so then remembering what you talked about previously, just being with them along the way. That can also do it because sometimes it is that in that moment you’re just so feeling your emotion so strongly having another person there can do it. But then also, as you know, like when you build a friendship over time and then showing up can be helpful. But it doesn’t always, that is kind of the downside of not very action oriented is then when you think about it, you’re like, oh, did we ever actually quite get to somewhere that felt like super meaningful and super kind of emotional and like have that kind of clear moment that I can write up and not necessarily like those are kind of that’s the ideal or maybe those are the ones that stick in my mind. But a lot of it is that kind of in between work where I mean, maybe we did something and also then the other issue is that I’m not asking for too much feedback. So then it’s also hard to know. I could leave a conversation feeling like I don’t really know how great that was and it could have been really great for the other person. You know, so it just kind of depends. So now I don’t really remember what your question was.
David Summerhays: I think I was just asking for an example of which the movie one was really nice.
Chaplain Sonora: Okay, good. Yeah.
David Summerhays: And it sounds like yeah, you’re not just seeing these people once. You’ll kind of visit, visit, visit and eventually figure out, oh, they’re watching movies. Do you want me to stick around? I can watch it with you and you know.
Chaplain Sonora: Yeah, I just this also depends on what context you are in the hospital. So the hospital in Vanderbilt, I was working on the medical intensive care unit, the ICU. So that is definitely a different context than like a palliative context where you know, people are in the ICU. It could be sudden. You could be in a car crash and then now you’re in the ICU as opposed to, okay, we know we’re on the journey to death, but like over the next month is a very different kind of, you know, contextual relationship or setting. So that also really influences what kind of engagement that I would have with the patient is where I am and where they are in the hospital. So most of my experience in that kind of more intense, sudden or some sort of thing element in a health situation is heightened to land you in the ICU is personally my experience, but that is not, it really varies. It’s part of that and this is also something I want to figure out more as I continue my training is like where in the hospital would I like to be and kind of figuring out what that balance is, is kind of a personal chaplain figuring out what context works best for you. But yeah, so it definitely depends if, you know, you’re here suddenly or not suddenly. So a lot of your experience is with people living pretty like sudden change, I guess you could say, and you’re kind of ground zero of all right, what now and what does this all mean and what’s the purpose of it? Yes. And then in general, then when it relates to death, if people are dying, it can be a bit more sudden than in the kind of a longer context or in a less extreme context. You know, if you’re like a chaplain in the cardiology unit, people are having health stuff, but like maybe not quite the same emergency level. Maybe we’re just you’ve been on this journey and having issues with your heart for years and here you are to get in the hospital. You know, like there was just a real variance on how intense or how extreme the situation is. So that really varies. But kind of my approach to figuring out what is important to this person is a little bit, I kind of separate those things out. So it’s not, I mean, I am approaching situations differently, but like kind of my underlying goal for the one goal that I have is the same, which is to figure out what is important to this person. How can I best support them? Those sorts of things.
David Summerhays: Have you had any experiences where you were like, wow, this person is going through such a difficult reversal, I guess you could say, and they were managing it in a way that you were like, that’s incredible or incredibly inspiring. And like, how are they making meaning out of something really difficult?
Chaplain Sonora: I was thinking about this. I’m not really, I’ve never been great at like inspiration in that way. I know other people find overcoming hardship inspiring. It’s not that I don’t find it inspiring, but I don’t know. That’s just never really been my focus. Because there’s a lot of tragedy. There’s a lot of just truly tragic situations that you then have to deal with. Not in an abstract, oh, this happened to my neighbor thing. But in a, this is a young person, this is somebody younger than me. I’m currently 27 and people are younger than me and they’re going to die. And they are dying and they’re dead in front of me. You know, like that kind of tragedy is just present. And that’s what I mean a little bit with my kind of comfortability with death and stuff like that. That it’s just, life is suffering, like there is so much suffering and terrible, terrible things happen. Yeah, so it’s kind of, people I kind of think of it less as like, oh, this person is particularly inspiring and more like everyone’s just doing their best. And some people maybe have betters, you know, have perhaps set themselves up for success or not even set themselves up. Just life circumstances, they have handled this better or they have a really great mindset about it. I think it is impressive. I think that’s something I guess I’m impressed by when people are clearly very resilient or have kind of self strategies for their resilience. You know, because yeah, that can come in the form of like narrativization when people how they tell their own story, if they’ve been through immense suffering, how they kind of conceptualize that and how they are able to communicate that. But then on the flip side, I don’t want to judge the person in front of me who’s been through extreme trauma and can’t really articulate that very well and is just suffering. You know, I don’t find that particularly inspirational. It just is what it is. It’s terrible. And so like that kind of is how I I don’t know if that’s particularly helpful, but yeah, I don’t really think about inspiration that much.
David Summerhays: Yeah, it sounds like your focus is I’m just trying to help the person in front of me whether they’re inspiring you personally or not. Yeah. But yeah, also just curious. Yeah, okay. But I also wanted to get to yeah, whether there are some folks that you’re just like that, I’m taking notes. That’s pretty amazing or the way they handle this.
Chaplain Sonora: Yeah, I think it is that set of strategies. Like having because there’s so much denial. There’s so many things that people are and I think denial is really hard to see in yourself. So like I have immense empathy, sympathy. I’m sure I’m in denial about something. You know what I mean? But that is that does come up when I can feel like I think we might be headed towards a bad death because you guys did not talk about this. And now this person is unconscious and we can’t talk to them. You’re over here struggling and this was not articulated well. But like people who have articulated, who have had good communication with their friends and families and also that ability to kind of express your wishes and what you want and then people who then respect that. I think that kind of honestly the communication part. People who have been in friendships and relationships and families for decades and decades and they’ve maintained good relationships and because of that they are headed for in my view it would be a good death. I think that to me is actually, I would say that is inspiring because that is also what I hope for and what I hope for other people is that you can pass surrounded by friends and family in peace. I think that for me is the ideal. So I am impressed when people and their communities, it’s not even a them thing, it’s that they have found themselves or not even found themselves, that they have worked and created and formed such a community of love around themselves and as part of the community. That yes of course people will be grieved for the rest of everyone else’s lives that are there with them. But to kind of achieve that and have that robustness of love and family and friends and know that they have lived a life well lived. That is I think to me the ultimate goal and really kind of the ideal. Which then I think I may be less appreciative of until you’re in a room where it’s really not the case and then you’re like ah yes okay I see this really is it. To be, to maintain those relationships, to have relationships with people and to keep the love alive. I mean it’s really hard and I think this is a larger conversation around as people get older and are more lonely and the kind of loneliness epidemic or you know sometimes I feel like a lot of times I end up just hanging out with old people who just need someone to talk to because they just don’t have enough friends. You know and so that kind of, which is not again always a reflection on themselves, it can be kind of an institutional, all sorts of reasons. But I think then when you do see okay this is the scenario and this person at the center has done something maybe to greater or lesser degrees but they’ve definitely done something to inspire to be in this situation. I think that’s very ideal, inspirational, what I hope for.
David Summerhays: I mean it partially sounds like you’re, through the chaplaincy work, kind of like seeing in a very real way like how important communication is with loved ones when you think about the meaningfulness, the good or bad death as you put it. But I mean I’m just thinking about my mom like her passing away was really really bad, very isolated and you know all kinds of stuff but managed to have a death where you know caught us on the phone, we managed to say love you and she was surrounded by family and the hospital was amazing and people would be sort of like oh you lost your mom like I’m really sorry and it’s like you know what strangely like I do miss her but I’m not very cut up about it like in a way just because as you say managed to have that good death like really like had a good chat with her sister and was really clear and I don’t know like she really had a good death and that was really meaningful especially considering it was looking like it was going to be real real bad. It made a big difference.
Chaplain Sonora: Yeah, I think you can just make a huge difference in terms of, again, the flip side, having a bad death can really I mean set you up for a life of grief that like your because grief is never doesn’t leave you know like we’re all you know I kind of feel a little bit similarly or about this comes out of like disability studies like we will all be disabled at some point in our lives so many of us are or have beds since birth or whatever and we all will deal with grief it’s just not an option to not you know the nature of life is that we die but I think you’re totally onto something in that you can’t these experiences even though they are hard and terrible and really inflict all these negative emotions upon us can be improved or less improved and the improved version does contribute to a better experience again even with all the caveats still sucks still wish everyone could just be alive and with us but there is a real value and yeah just having a support system – all the all the sorts of things that can create a better environment and make things less traumatic and less yeah just less traumatic I guess is the word because many deaths are very traumatic for a lot of folks with the death itself the actual happening of somebody dying, not the ongoing process of grief throughout your life, you know.
David Summerhays: but and it’s such a pivotal moment when you think about like literally the meaning of somebody’s life is like the story of it is going to be from birth to death it’s like that last moment and so much of you know in terms of the meaning of a story, they always say it’s the end that really writes the beginning you know and it’s yeah how things turn up that kind of dictates a little bit of what the whole thing meant, which is part of why as people go – like I just lost an aunt maybe last week – and you know just thinking through her life even though I didn’t know her very well, just thinking okay how do things end how did this story end and so what does that say about all the steps that came before it and what I know about her? And so, it seems to me, that this death and of course you’re not only working with people who die necessarily yeah no not at all but in a lot of cases potentially like they’re kind of close that’s why they’re there.
Chaplain Sonora: yeah okay it depends if your view is that you were always closer to death in the hospital no matter what you’re in there for then, I guess, yes, although many people leave the hospital very much alive. That’s kind of why you know I kind of tend towards maybe a bit more of a general disability framework as opposed to being super death focused because it’s you know I kind of like to distinguish a little bit like okay we’re dealing with health stuff which then can have you know mobility pain all the elements of life and of being a person with various levels of ability it can kind of be a better core thing as opposed to always being like oh yes and now you person with a cane are closer to death is not particularly helpful so it depends but yes there is still a good amount of that because of the nature of the hospital yeah.
David Summerhays: and what they’re there for and stuff like that
Chaplain Sonora: yep and where they are and what the circumstances absolutely
David Summerhays: Is good news a challenge? Are there folks that like, you know, they get like good news and they’re like oh that’s harder than I expected
Chaplain Sonora: Yeah, I mean it definitely can be. I think it depends on the person but like if you’re kind of bracing or you’ve set all these things up to prepare yourself for the worst and then the worst doesn’t happen, it’s another kind of crisis of meaning. What do you do? Like, what how do I redefine myself? What does this mean theologically? You know we have talked about this like you know in terms of what God has given you or like okay well I got this blessing. Does that mean I did something? Does that like or you know kind of it any sort of shifted from your expectations from what you’re expecting then what happens kind of disrupts your how you’re how you’re making meaning out of the situation. So yeah. Usually it’s the other way around, where things have been going well in life and now suddenly you’re in the hospital oh no like what does that mean, what was happening? But yes the reverse could definitely be true as well: you’ve… everything has sucked and you have just been preparing for, “oh this will just continue to be terrible, I’ll just always be in pain like this” and then you could not be in pain like that and then be constantly thinking “well, I will be in pain like that again” you know that’s kind of, you know, whatever it is you kind of need to work through it or I guess you don’t need to but like as a chaplain that’s probably what I would be working through with you of like but how do you you know and not focusing trying to reorient all those sorts of things so definitely any sort of change or any sort of disruption and it can be unexpected and that’s kind of the part of figuring out what this person means to this person because something that might be disruptive to somebody else down the hallway might not be disrupting to the person in front of me. So the person I just talked to might have a real issue with pain medication and like wanting to I don’t know you know brave through it or have a whole relationship or that’s mainly what our discussion was about or something for example this is just theoretical you know but and then the person down the hall I might be like, “oh and how do you feel about this?” and they might be like “that’s great” like it’s just not it doesn’t disrupt their meaning how they’re interpreting how they’re viewing themselves in this happening this event or their life you know it just isn’t important to them so that’s kind of the figuring out going back to how, like just, and they have those patients might both have Methodist in their chart but that doesn’t really that didn’t help me figure out that this person really is focused on this thing and this other person is really not and they’re on to something completely different you know about like their family and like okay and then we’re obsessing over micromanaging you know your nieces and nephews or something it’s like okay well this is something else that we’re going to focus on. Why are your nieces not visiting you? I don’t know let’s talk about this clearly this is something you care about but this other thing might may or may not. So it really depends on the person themselves but yes lots of things can be disrupting and then validating like even if it’s something small if it’s disrupting to you then it’s still disrupting you know it’s like people would be like oh. The one that always gets me is people are like “oh, but other people have a worse.” and I’m like “yes I’m like yes of course there’s definitely worse situations out there” but then I kind of like then I have to kind of talk with that person more about okay trying to in my own head figuring out sure what do you really mean by that like are you it’s because you are so downplaying your own stuff that your own pain you’re just trying to focus outward and be like oh other people are in more pain so that I don’t really have to or I just don’t even really want to touch my own stuff or is that just something you’re just kind of lightly saying and that’s not actually really what you’re caring about yeah just there’s lots of variations. But that’s always the one where I’m like okay well we need to investigate in my head I’m like okay well we’re going to keep talking because sure but what do you mean by other people are worse and you can’t really ask that question that’s not a super helpful question the more the follow-up question I’d probably do is more along the lines of like what their examples that they give would be more revealing like when they say okay other people have it worse if they then give a follow-up example like oh well this person here here here and it’s like okay is that a more extreme thing that they’re already going through or is it something totally different I don’t know the actual content might be more useful for me figuring out but you know just depends.
David Summerhays: Huh, okay, super interesting.
Chaplain Sonora: I think we covered what I think a good death is and how…
David Summerhays: A good transition.
Chaplain Sonora: Yeah, transition, and how I kind of professionally as chaplain as a capital F friend [Quaker] try to figure out and support people which is meaningful to me and how I try to find meaning in their lives or how do I try to identify their framework of meaning making so that I can engage with that more directly and you know do my best to support but I’m whole meaningful life I don’t know I’m kind of just think about the hospital but it could be anything but I mean a lot of you know your chickens come to roost sometimes in the hospital.
David Summerhays: I mean I’m learning that we could probably talk for another three hours about this. I’ll have to call you back for sure.
I mean this has been super fun. I wouldn’t be surprised people listening to this are like, “wow I’m I’ve learned a lot about how to dialogue with people and think about okay what’s really meaningful to you what’s really bothering you how to be a good friend” I mean that sounds like it’s a big piece of it is how do we accompany each other on this crazy life journey through in your case really intense transitions that happen to all of us.
Chaplain Sonora: Yes. I kind of – some of these are some pretty… I mean I think of them as basic but I’ve been acquainted with them for a long time of active listening principles so if people want kind of an action item would be to kind of investigate active listening trainings or do some own personal research on active listening skills because there are definitely certain skills, like I was kind of going over a little bit about paraphrasing about, I think very much about my body language, and you know there’s lots of tangible things you can think about to be a better listener. And to you know yeah listening as a way to as an avenue to being a good friend as an important skill it’s a very valuable skill so.
David Summerhays: well and having those relationships quality relationships that you talked about where the person is going through this transition it could be a death transition or any kind of transition and you just feel like wow they’re able to communicate you’re not having the tons of baggage come up right at this moment but rather than just like well listen you know love you what do you need and you know where it’s just sort of harmonious and they’re able to weather kind of weather a storm together in a harmonious way.
Chaplain Sonora: Yes, which is kind of a testament to love and what you know good healthy loving relationships can bring you is that kind of can really smooth out some of the edges of life by having those stable communicative long-term loving friendships and relationships is absolutely… I mean it is both the joy of being with people of being with your friends but also that kind of it can really smooth off the edges of so much of life is difficult and it’s better with friends.
David Summerhays: Well, thanks so much, Sonora, this has been a blast and I don’t even know how to end it except to be like that was amazing. So thanks so much.
Chaplain Sonora: Okay, great yeah well I’m glad that I can come talk to you today though it feels like you know with the 80-20 thing I feel like I it’s a bit hard for me to talk all the time I don’t really love it.
David Summerhays: Yeah, I was like what percentage have I been talking, I don’t know…
So that was my interview with Sonora thank you so much to her for coming on and sharing all that insight and wisdom from her experience as a hospital chaplain I think one of the things that really strikes me about her experience is how much a good death is something we build up to by communicating well with our loved ones early and so that we can get to this kind of crisis situation of being in the hospital being unwell making big decisions and the big message doesn’t have to be you know I forgive you for this or I’m so mad at you about that it’s I love you and we can just focus on the big transition that’s happening whether that’s death or something else and I’m really struck by her admiration for that kind of communication like team problem solving and things like that and what really strikes me is that it doesn’t just happen in the hospital it’s something that we build up to pretty much throughout our whole lives and so for me I ended up from these interviews thinking about the way this phrase that we spend our whole lives learning to die preparing to die you know we spend our lives living as well but it just kind of reinforced for me the importance of spending our lives building these relationships communicating well being honest having hard conversations sometimes but also having fun and just appreciating people and the way just living well and having good relationships is really a way to prepare for that good death and like I mentioned in my own case with my mom the fact that she passed in a really good way was incredibly meaningful for me it really brought me a sense of satisfaction and a difficult otherwise difficult thing I’m not satisfied that she’s gone obviously but just satisfied with the way that she went considering it didn’t look good and the good death really meant a lot so thanks again to Sonora for coming on and sharing all that insight I found it really enriching hope you did too.
I’m so glad that you’re here listening to this podcast being part of this community because I think this is a movement to talk about meaning more I think as we’re going to see as this podcast goes on that this problem this struggle with meaning has a lot of ramifications throughout the rest of society and talking more about this issue is going to really help have better politics have better policies around meaning so please help out as best you can by liking and subscribing any way you can about this podcast if you want to learn more you can go to forgingpurpose.org go check out Summerhays at BlueSky see you in the next one.